Kundan Joshi 0:00

The winter and the storm and all the challenges and hurdles are a necessity for us to open our blind spots for new beginnings, for the right approach and so on. So I look at storms as an opportunity and this uh the storm over the last few years, which was a combination of market shift and how technology is being used and how problems need to be solved for our customers, that has significantly changed. So we had to apply first principles thinking into our own business and see, okay, what like how do we solve these new problems in and what are the right solutions in a different way, not necessarily the same way we were solving before.

Angela Robertson 0:35

Welcome back, everyone. Great to have you join us today on the Stormy Stories show. I'm your host, Angela Robertson, CEO of Ace Tech. We are a not-for-profit community of bringing together CEOs and founders who understand what it's like to build a technology company in Canada. I'm so pleased to be joined today by Kunden Joshi, founder and CEO of the App Lab and AI Lab, who has helped build more than 750 apps for leading global brands while growing a technology company with teams across multiple offices. He is also a founder of the Canada AI Alliance and the Canada US Business Alliance, and has been recognized as an EY Entrepreneur of the Year finalist and one of Canada's top 25 immigrants. Kunden, thank you so much for joining us today on the Stormy Stories show.

Kundan Joshi 1:33

Thank you for having me. Super excited for the for the talk today.

Angela Robertson 1:37

Yeah. You've built over 750 apps. I just said this through the App Lab. What lessons from those builds in those years do you think are most relevant for founders who are building AI companies today?

Kundan Joshi 1:52

Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, right? I mean, uh, from a technology curve standpoint, when I started App Lab, this is uh dating myself 2007, 18 years back, uh, iPhone wasn't born yet. So uh uh apps were still uh a new phenomenon uh in essence. And uh we are kind of in the same technology shift today uh with AI, uh, where things are changing on a daily basis. And and the same, I mean, there are some traits that I can see in those early days of app development. Uh, I saw a lot of founders kind of uh not just even founders, even tech leaders, companies make the mistake of uh leading with technology, kind of going after the shiny object. Have you building a cool app was a cool thing to do at that time because it was shiny, it was it was a good story, it was great PR. But they kind of lost sight of the actual foundational business behind it. Uh uh, are they really solving a problem? Are they really transforming their business uh or someone else's business? And so, so that's I think that that stays the same uh today, where uh uh where uh you can see a lot of folks going after the cool LLM or the cool AI model, and what can AI do? And again, from an experimentation standpoint, that's very critical that get an understanding of it, you dive yourself into it, uh, you uh you experiment with it. But when you're building a company or when you're adopting this technology, uh I think it's important uh to look at the business first, to look at uh what what painful business problem are we trying to solve, or a consumer problem, or a custom or a human problem are you trying to solve, depending whether it's a a B2B or a B2C uh company you are starting. Uh, are you creating measurable value that uh for that business or for the for the customer in essence? Has it been adopted? Can it actually be adopted within an organization or for the individual? Do you have a deep understanding, a deep customer understanding to that that you can validate in essence, right? Along with obviously today, with the speed of execution and the use of responsible AI, those factors obviously become extremely critical uh to build the right uh right foundation. So, I mean, in many ways, right, if you put those two things in parallel, the app age and the AI age, uh, I mean, uh, in the in the AI age, user experience was the king. Uh, in uh sorry, in the app age, user experience was the king, in the AI age, data is the king. Quality and proprietary uh nature of the data becomes the primary moat in many ways, like the access to customer or uh ability to create that experience for the customer was the main moat uh in those days. And very similarly to how I did it with App Lab was okay, hey, that's great. Here's a customer problem. Let's let's apply first principles thinking to it, because there's a new way of building those user experiences. So, very similarly today, the lessons I would say that are relevant today are uh use that customer problem, apply first principles thinking to it, considering the application of AI towards solving that problem. And again, I mean, and and keep focusing on speed, responsibility, and uh ability to evolve and help the customer solve that problem through the solutions that you create.

Angela Robertson 5:15

I think what you touch on is so often glossed over, right? You know, people can look at the shiny object, start to see the pace at which technology is changing, and start to worry about do I need to pivot and do I need to change and shift with where that's going. What's maybe one stormy moment in your journey where you either had to make a major pivot or maybe where you challenged the trends of where things were going and just knew that you were already on the right path?

Kundan Joshi 5:45

Yeah, I mean, uh, in my 18 years of uh being uh an entrepreneur and scaling uh company and companies uh in technology, I've had multiple pivots. Flexibility from the perspective of uh having a growth mindset, constantly learning, being nimble on the feet uh to align with the market has always been a critical factor. For us, I mean, is the it's pretty much the journey that we are set on right now. I mean, uh our shift from being uh from being an app innovation company as a as a primary organization uh to being uh an AI transformation partner. Uh that journey between App Lab and AI Lab, while both the organizations are active and well today, uh that shift in mindset was extremely important. That shift in our focus was extremely important. And that came as a result of understanding our customers, our customers' needs. Uh we realized that our uh our customers were uh not just looking for uh a user experience transformation through uh uh through app developers, they're looking for automation, they were looking for intelligence, they were looking for measurable business outcomes. Uh so we had to pivot and shift uh by being close to them, kind of uh evolve as a result of it. And our evolution started uh long back. I mean, AI lab was established eight years back. Uh so I saw that early that hey, this is this is a shift that's going to happen. Uh, so how do we invest in uh helping our clients set their right, set the right data foundation, set the right, I mean, obviously Gen AI didn't exist eight years back, it was mostly machine learning, so AI and ML. But we built that capability. Uh, it was in the back burner because customers weren't ready, but we were ready from uh an out of the possible, from uh from pushing them and challenging them uh to looking at the future and ensuring they're doing the right things today to achieve that. And and when obviously it became obvious that uh uh that uh AI is in the in the uh in the in the center stage about three years back, uh we had to press that hard pivot, make sure that uh we are uh chain. And it was just it wasn't that pivot wasn't just a change in services. I mean, it was a shift in mindset, it was a shift in talent and our partnerships and our positioning. Uh so it was uh it was a significant shift for us, uh starting obviously with our existing clients and then moving from there. But you know, I mean, uh, and I mean obviously the the show is titled uh uh uh stormy stories. I mean, uh I I mean I embrace storms, I embrace challenges. I think it's important uh as an entrepreneur uh to look at storms not as an obstacle or a challenge or a hurdle, uh, but look at it as a true opportunity. I mean, without the storms, I mean, sometimes we take it for granted. Uh so it's important that we look at that as an opportunity for us to open up on our uh blind spots, make sure we are because after every storm, I mean, yeah, during the storm everything is a chaos. Uh but soon after uh you will experience that the air is clearer, the sky is brighter, right? So it always leads to better things. I mean, after again, if we don't want winter, I mean, spring's never gonna come. I mean, new blossoms are gonna come, right? So the the winter and the storm and all the challenges and hurdles are a necessity for us to open our blind spots for new beginnings, for the right approach and so on. So I look at storms as an opportunity and this uh the storm over the last few years, which was a combination of market shift and how technology is being used and how problems need to be solved for our customers, that has significantly changed. So we had to apply first principles thinking into our own business and see, okay, what what do like how do we solve these new problems in and what are the right solutions in a different way, not necessarily the same way we were solving before?

Angela Robertson 9:36

Yeah, I want to pull on that thread around being in the storm and having that be such a necessary part of the entrepreneurial journey. And I think for some of our listeners, it's easy to go, okay, yes, I'm in a difficult time and in a grind, but I see out of it. But how do I help my team to understand and come along that difficult journey or that difficult pivot? How have you kept your teams aligned when you are kind of in this turbulent stage where you can tell that something's shifting? You hear from your customers and your market what's changed, but it's not the same as what the team is feeling or experiencing. What are some ideas that maybe you've learned along the way that help to bring your team along for that shift and that change?

Kundan Joshi 10:26

Yeah, I mean, uh, I mean, I would say uh clarity is the most important aspect that you can do as a leader, right? Uh it starts with internally, uh, so making sure you are you have clear uh thought in terms of uh what the challenge is and uh and being honest and true to yourself. Uh so I've I've always tried to do that, just make sure I have a good understanding of what the pulse of the problem is and uh and what's the approach. And uh and again, I mean, not necessary. All uh the decisions made are are foolproof. They're obviously not meant to be, they are meant to be uh experiments, but uh but experiments based on data and judgment and gut feel, and uh come be communicating that with clarity to the team that hey, this is why we are choosing this path, this is what we are trying to experiment, this is what we are trying to learn, that becomes important. I mean, the reason we have a great culture around our company is because uh because of the purpose. Uh, there's clarity in terms of what is the bigger goal that we are trying to achieve. I mean, uh, it's not a piece of technology that are putting out there that might stay on the shelf. Uh, we are building products that transform human experiences, we're building products that transform businesses and by giving them measurable business outcomes. Uh, so those uh that purpose is is clear to our uh to our team, and uh and our pivot is not necessarily a pivot because oh, here's a certain set of challenges and we need to figure out uh, but the but the world is changing and our customers need our help more than ever. And what do we need to change? What do we need to improve? How what do we need to pivot to in order to serve our customers in the best possible way? So that clarity becomes extremely important, uh in in combination with uh with clear communication, obviously, right? So uh so clarity of thought and then communicating that very clearly uh to the team is important. So throughout the process of our pivot, and as we kind as we experimented and changed things and tried something, uh, did a pivot, did a pilot, did a scale. So in that entire process, we ensured that that communication was clear, the team was on the board, they understood even when we made mistakes, which we made tons of, uh, it was clear why we made that decision and what are we learning from that decision, and how do we now make sure uh that is actually opening up some blind spots for us, and uh and that challenge, that mistake, that failure was actually an advantage, puts us in that state of advantage, which now we can utilize those learnings towards getting getting a better strategy, a better focus, a better direction. So that clarity of uh the clarity of purpose, the communication becomes extremely important. And when you've established strong operating rhythms, it becomes a lot easier to manage that, obviously. So for us, I mean, obviously, we lead with our values, uh, which are completely aligned to our purpose. Uh, our values are very clear, right, from the day that, right from when you get interviewed here to when you join and continue in the journey there, uh, we reward based on our values. Uh, our values are uh have KPIs associated with it, they're measurable, and as a result, rewarding is uh objective uh in terms of uh uh how we reward for the values for the right behaviors in the organization. Uh so that gets celebrated. And there's uh and as the even if when we shifted and we continue to shift, uh, we ensure we keep maintaining those operating rhythms to uh keep the momentum on and keep growing collectively together in SP.

Angela Robertson 13:58

Yeah, and I think that one of the most challenging pieces about doing business, especially in the AI landscape today, is that it just feels like we've stepped on the gas and the gas pedal keeps going down. Like there's no end to how fast it can go. It just when you think things are fast, all of a sudden you feel like you're behind on what's happening. I know a lot of our members in our organization talk about feeling like they're already behind when it comes to AI, even those that are in this landscape. How do you think? And maybe how should other CEOs think about adopting new technology without creating chaos inside their organizations or without maybe continuing that shiny object syndrome of okay, we've got to get on the latest and greatest tool out there, and why haven't we already?

Kundan Joshi 14:49

Yeah. So first I'll answer the first part in the words, right? For us internally, so one of our values is growth mindset, right? Uh so as a person working at the app lab and the AI lab, uh having that thirst to learn something new, having that opportunity to actually open your blind spots and and and have a transformation in terms of, oh wow, I thought that's how it was done, but now I know a better way. Uh, it's celebrated. That opportunity is celebrated. So uh so the current curve uh where we which continue to get steeper uh as uh as things are moving at a very fast pace, it's important internally that we're embracing it and we are enjoying it, we're cherishing it because it's an opportunity for us to learn and grow and pivot and find different ways. And we kind of put in where, hey, no one's an expert right now. It's important that you're part of the journey, you're on the journey, you're learning, you're growing, you're trying, you're experimenting. And that's that's an important celebration to have, in essence, and an important mindset to have in essence. So that's one aspect of it, just being part of that journey without getting overwhelmed that we are too behind or too slow, because everyone's in the same journey together, right? I mean, uh, there's no there are no real experts, there no one has a massive amount of experience apart from obviously uh some of the key LLM companies and foundational models that have obviously uh uh uh uh uh they own a part of the entire AI continuum, still not the entire part, right? Uh so obviously there again, there's everyone is learning together in essence. And I mean that's sort of how we try to guide our customers as well, in essence, right? Our customers, my peer CEOs, folks in our communities, right? So I obviously I'm part of, I mean, obviously, I've uh admired Ace Tech and the community that you have. Uh, I'm a member of YPO and CEO forums and multiple similar communities. I've created communities for uh technology leaders in a similar way. And what we kind of talk about is hey, don't treat again similar to what I mentioned earlier, AI is not uh don't treat as AI as a technology experiment. Yeah, sure, you will experiment along the way, but AI is a business transformation tool, first of all, right? So uh, and you know your business well. So instead of starting on a paradigm where, oh, this is a new technology and have known I know nothing about, it's in essence a business transformation. So you're starting with your business, which you know about. So there's again, there's a bit more of that control in essence, and then you are looking at your key levers for your business, right? As opposed to what is the shiniest object or what is the lowest hanging fruit where AI can have the most important, most impact, that doesn't really matter if it's not important to your business, right? So kind of focusing as a CEO, as an executive, uh, today to focus on those key business levers. And for you, it might be revenue growth, it might be cost reduction, it might be productivity, it might be customer experience, whatever that might be, could be risk reduction, right? So kind of looking at what are those key pain points first, and then looking at okay, what might be, let's identify the high value use cases, high value, low risk, low complexity, that kind of brings that kind of uh a priority matrix for uh low-hanging fruits from an AI use case. So now you're clear where where you need to start. Uh, then obviously, from a foundation standpoint, is obviously making sure that you build the guardrails early around data, around security, around governance, around change management, right? I mean, that also becomes an important criteria. Uh, the team readiness is an important factor from a change management standpoint. Otherwise, if adoption is not there, what the hell are you building it for? So that is uh I mean that's how we uh ask our clients to focus on. That's how we guide our clients uh on the journey as well. Obviously, I mean, when you get overwhelmed, again, that's where chaos sets in. You try to do too many things at the same time, right? Uh, versus the better approach is to start focused, can again, right, can identify the right kind of objectives where you want to focus, then prove value. Even one use case, proven business value, does a tremendous true like clear business uh business value. But hey, I mean, I did this use case, and here's how much I saved dollar figure, uh, from our cost standpoint, or this is how much we added to our top line as a result of that use case, in essence, that does a tremendous job of really bringing the team along, creating that momentum, creating that energy. And then when you build that trust within for yourself, for your organization, for your team, then you can start scaling. And uh, and while you do that, again, right? I mean, I think it's important to take the organization along, uh, communicate that why you're doing it, why we're doing it for the business, for which levers. So everyone's part of the journey, a human in the loop, ability to ensure everyone's adopting it. You're able to get identify better challenges in your business, which you may not have a uh purview of, and as a result, continue on that process. And it's never gonna be never ending, just like everything else, right? I mean, data is a never-ending data readiness is never ending, but it's about right sizing it, ensuring you're prioritizing it in the right way and taking that up. Similarly, from an AI standpoint, take the use case that's highest value and keep doing that and continue do that through all aspects of the organization.

Angela Robertson 20:07

Yeah, that illustrates so well what I think. I mean, I'm a big fan of Jim Collins and in Good to Great, he talks about firing bullets before cannonballs, right? So, and I think that's truer now with the age of AI than any other time, right? If you know your business, if you have those initial quick wins or the low-hanging fruit, like you said, um, and you can demonstrate that you're having success with those trials, then that's an easy way to galvanize your team around it and then build into those cannonballs that really move the dial for your business. What grounds you, Kunden, in all of this? It sounds like you really understand the landscape. You're you've been in business for a long time. Uh, you seem to have tabs on AI and everything else. What keeps you grounded and focused when the storms are all around and things seem a little bit murky in this world?

Kundan Joshi 21:03

Yeah, I mean, I'm uh I mean, I'm focused on ensuring that we are doing the best for our clients, right? I mean, ensuring that they are succeeding in their own individual journeys, right? And are even across our clients. They are in different kinds of uh uh different AI readiness continuum uh in essence. So our role is different based on where they are and how do we guide them the best in their journey so that they can move us a step forward, a ladder, like a rung forward on the ladder. So that's our goal to stay very focused to the needs of uh our clients first. Uh, and then second, for the ecosystem as a whole. That's where I play that role in building the communities, building communities that are aligned with our national goals. I think uh they're all aligned if we are able to help customer companies adopt AI faster, commercialize this technology in a better way, in a secure way, in a responsible way, it's massive. advantage to our to our country as a whole. It's a massive advantage to our businesses and increasing the productivity of those businesses to retain our top talent within the come within the country because we are not uh we don't have enough jobs right now for the top AI researchers and for the top AI talent, which we do a great job of creating. But you don't have not, I mean, not having enough jobs means we don't have ability to pay them what they will get elsewhere. But also we won't be able to give them enough challenging work to uh to to retain them intellectually uh uh uh make sure that they are engaged and so that we can commercialize our own how homegrown uh AI our own AI research better within the country uh ensure that our companies our AI companies stay within the country so all of that that entire ecosystem in a way uh is uh uh for me is figuring out that true win-win where everyone wins if the ecosystem wins I think there's more than enough in the pie. If everyone wins I think there is a lot of value there. And for me personally to be very honest I get grounded and excited at the same time with two simple things. One is constant ongoing learning and second is creating impact. And uh for me through what I do through my company and what I do through the community both aspects at the end of the day relate to me constantly learning learning in different runs learning in different uh different aspects so that uh me individually us as a company and us as a community uh can make a bigger impact learn together and as a result accelerate our learning a much faster uh and create better impact together so that's what excites me motivates me and uh and I mean I mean the question was grounding I mean I have obviously a totally other aspect of grounding personally from my meditation routine to exercise and so on that keeps me on my feet and gives me the energy to all the to do the all the things I do. But yeah that's uh that's what I would say.

Angela Robertson 23:59

That's beautiful. I really want to pull on that thread a little bit more just before we wrap around community because I think when you're building and especially as an entrepreneur and especially in technology there is that sense of maybe I am doing this on my own. You know I do have a team behind me but who else knows what I'm going through. What has drawn you to understand that importance of community so much and how has that lens shaped you and made you a better leader overall?

Kundan Joshi 24:32

Yeah totally totally so I mean uh I've personally benefited tremendously in my own leadership journey through peer learning groups right so as I mentioned Ace Tech follows a similar model uh YPO Macesio forums some of the groups that I've been engaged with uh been a part of uh they've done a tremendous like a they've helped me in a big way uh through my lows uh when I had doubts as an entrepreneur as uh uh as a bootstrapped entrepreneur as a first-time entrepreneur whatever that is I mean it it was it that peer learning has been a big part of it in essence right so I've benefited directly from a community myself I've always been a community leader of some ways I've always liked to bring people together that has always been my thing so I've always enjoyed that aspect of it but I what I learned through the peer learning communities is uh is one uh there's more there's there's a lot of value in collective learning uh by bringing people together uh second uh I always felt empowered that hey if it's not being done before maybe I can do it let's start it right I mean so as an entrepreneur if you are saying hey I mean why am I lonely well you can always start it and bring people together right I mean why so I mean for me uh in like again I have communities of technology leaders I've always as a vendor to those I've always felt like an outsider and I'm like okay hey do I sponsor those communities do I be a part of them in some way or do I create my own community and I felt I think I can add more value direct value by creating a community not for me but more for the community itself and when I found that value I created that community in essence when I felt that hey I mean as Canada we are not organized from an AI industry standpoint I felt there was a distinct gap that we do amazing research we have great talent but from a commercialization standpoint we don't do enough and as a result we're not organized as an industry so that that was a gap so I build the relationships from a government standpoint build the relationships from a from technology leader standpoint and I kind of brought all of that together say okay let's start it and let's see where it goes uh so I kind of brought that kind of entrepreneurial spirit to uh to not for profit in a way to bringing that community together and it has to be a win-win right so obviously it was a win for me because these are folks that I want to learn from uh if Canada succeeds then we all succeed so obviously this is it was it was important for me I'm not going anywhere and this is my home I want to make Canada successful and I want to be successful here. So it's it's it's in essence a win-win right so I would encourage folks to to create their own communities I mean there are folks where in different industries where they have that fire they have that want and desire to do that and I would give them the playbook I'm like here's a playbook it has worked for me you can try and do that on your own but if you have that desire uh again if it's not aligned it is very difficult to sustain it but if it's aligned then yes it's extra effort uh but there's a massive value that you can do to uplift the ecosystem and get benefit yourself as well in a way right and uh and hence it's important and and it's extremely beneficial from a learning from a growth from opening of blind spots uh and as a country we need to collaborate more we need to there are two things that I personally believe that we can benefit from one is take more risks and as a result entrepreneurship mindset is more important for the company country as a whole and second we can collaborate more better together uh and if we do that I think we can create a better brand of what it means to be Canadian industry what it means from how we grow our economy our country our country towards in the right direction I personally obviously believe AI is a very important significant technology that has a massive impact on the world and for Canada to play an important part and role in the global ecosystem is extremely critical for and that will have an impact not just on the technology industry but every single industry and truly build out that entire value chain for every industry. So which is where I come I'm committed there but everyone I would say bring people together there are ways that you can do and and the thing is right I mean conferences are great every everywhere people are coming together is great. But as you know right as you as you are I'm sure doing in Ace Tech as well when you bring a smaller group of people together you build that high trust by creating certain values such as confidentiality let's keep everything in the room itself let's let's keep judgment outside right let's park our ego outside the room let's park judgment outside the room let's be there if you and especially if you bring peers together now there's direct value vested in to for everyone in the community to learn from each other. So as peers let's do that and now let's just focus on learning from each other. We're not giving advice to each other we're sharing our experiences we are going deeper in terms of our own experiences our own challenges and everyone benefits. And you can create your own pockets of community to what that means in your own learning journey across the country, across sectors and uh and we can create a much more thriving ecosystem uh as we continue to progress, learn uh and support each other deeply and meaningfully through the journey.

Angela Robertson 29:55

I completely agree. A more connected Canada and a more connected entrepreneurial community help can only mean good things for where technology is going. Thank you so much, Kunden. It was such a pleasure chatting with you today. I'm so grateful that you took the time to spend with our listeners on the Stormy Stories show uh and we hope that there are blue skies ahead for you.

Kundan Joshi 30:20

Certainly thank you thank you for uh for having me and wishing you all the best as well.

Angela Robertson 30:25

Great