Angela Robertson 0:00

Welcome back, everyone, to the Stormy Stories show. I'm your host, Angela Robertson. I am the CEO of Ace Tech, a non-for-profit membership society for tech CEOs and founders. We exist so that every CEO and their company can thrive. I'm so thrilled to introduce you to today's guest, Elizabeth Cook, who's the CEO and co-founder of Digney, a technology company helping organizations measure diversity and strengthen inclusion through data-driven insights. A lawyer by training and a trusted advisor to governments, businesses, and industry leaders. She is shaping the future of workplace culture all across Canada. Welcome, Elizabeth.

Elisabeth Cooke 0:46

Thanks. So happy to be here.

Angela Robertson 0:47

You built digney around measuring diversity and improving inclusion. What gap in the market made you realize that this company had to exist?

Elisabeth Cooke 0:56

Well, we see it a lot around companies want to tick that box, right? They want to say that they're a great place to work because they want to attract the best talent and then retain them for a long time. And people look at like employee engagement and inclusive culture and wanting to have strong leadership teams, but they often lack the expertise of actually how to get there and how to deliver on that. So they really needed the tools, the actual tools, like the technology to gather that, the information and the data that they need to understand how to do that. And then the the guidance to be able to do those things consistently. There was a gap there between the tech side and then the understanding people side in like an actual meaningful way, not just that we put it on our website that we know how people work. And so that's sort of why uh we saw that the real gap was around like that intention and the execution. So it's both there wasn't that piece in the market of having the you know that dual expertise, and then there was a gap in what employers were actually able to do around, you know, showing the intention of, you know, I use the expression all the time, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but having the execution there is was often really missing.

Angela Robertson 1:59

How has that changed now over time? Do you see that there's more folks who are maybe seeing this as a space that they can play in, but maybe the intention doesn't necessarily match up? Or what is it that you see or that Digney is doing differently in this space?

Elisabeth Cooke 2:16

Well, as a lawyer by training, I'm sort of required to say it depends uh several times a week. So it depends. Um, and it depends a lot on you know how you're looking at it. We say DEI, and we were really big on saying DEI and saying Black Lives Matter when George Floyd was murdered, um, you know, a number of years ago. And then the political climate shifts, and then we change the language around what we're using again. At the end of the day, people still want to have profitable businesses, and the most profitable businesses are the ones that are diverse and are inclusive. And we know that because we've got over 20 years worth of business cases that show us exactly that. Really large, well-known companies that do the best are diverse in nature and inclusive as a fundamental business structure of being able to do well. So we still see people doing that, even though the language around that changes and people are, you know, certainly these days a lot more mindful with how they're talking about that. But, you know, in a company like the people are your biggest resource, right? Because they're the ones that are doing everything. And if, you know, they're not happy, uh you will know about it. Uh if things aren't working well, you will you will know about it. And if people are being very naughty and are discriminating and harassing against people, you will also know about that, which isn't sort of just the fluffy DEI talk that we often have. Like we're in Canada, it's a you know, it's a basic uh human right here to be free from harassment and discrimination, um, you know, for a huge class of protected people. So we have legal requirements as employers uh to be to be really mindful of those kind of things as well. So people can call it whatever they like, but no matter, you know, sort of what's happened over time, you you still need to uphold all of um all of those pieces because they're fundamental to employment law.

Angela Robertson 3:55

They are indeed. And it's so important. And I think I want to tug on something that you just said because sometimes people think about this as the fluff or that it's obvious.

Elisabeth Cooke 4:04

Yeah.

Angela Robertson 4:05

And talk about wanting to do something about it. Um but many leaders don't know how to measure culture. So what metrics actually matter when building an inclusive workspace? How do you make that objective?

Elisabeth Cooke 4:19

Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question, and it's one of the biggest misconceptions that we see is that culture isn't something that you can measure, um, but it absolutely can be. We look at measuring that um a lot around psychological safety, around trust and leadership, our sense of belonging, our that sort of traditional employee engagement, um, which we need to move sort of beyond the like happy face tick box uh pieces and ask, you know, more uh more rigorous, uh, you know, ideally based in the in a good scientific methodology way of asking those questions. We ask it a lot around fairness and measuring um whether employees feel their voices are heard. You know, if you want to go to a company that has a bad culture, um, it's very easy to find all the sorts of reasons why things are a bad culture. And and uh, you know, and identifying some of those is just sort of one of them. But the the thing that that we've noticed is, you know, not only can you measure um culture, but looking at the data alone, like actually asking the right questions with the right answer prompts and you know, collecting all of that data and analyzing it, you know, in in an accurate uh way that captures, you know, what it is that you're actually measuring, looking at that data isn't just going to magically change things, right? Like asking those questions isn't gonna shift the culture, and it's what it is that you do with it afterwards that really matter. And that's that's where the huge piece of success that we see as a company, and that's sort of the you know, the for lack of a better way of describing it, like the the consulting side of our company really thrives because we're actually able to help leaders to understand what the data is telling them, sort of see what kind of actions need to be taken, and that's where you start to see those shifts, right? So if you have a group of employees that don't feel like they can speak up, that's not just an HR issue, right? We we lump a lot of things under human resources uh to our detriment, but that's a leadership issue and it's an innovation issue. You know, one of the things that people really grabbed onto around the business case for DEI over COVID was that companies that were, you know, diverse and inclusive were eight times more agile and innovative than their than their non-diverse and non-inclusive peers. And that's a really key performance issue, right? Is that that being able to be innovative in really tough times when we have a lot of constraints put on us, looking at those kind of measurements helps to give us those insights, but it's the leadership action that we need that um actually starts to create the change to be able to adjust that workforce.

Angela Robertson 6:32

Yeah. And I think it's that piece about, you know, once you build that culture with psychological safety as the underpinning, right? It can start to just surface more things within the organization that build that performance into just a rocket ship that's taking off, right? Because people can expose what they're thinking and they're not having to filter. And so you often write about this, though, about psychological safety as a performance strategy. Why do so why do you think so many organizations still underestimate the impact, the direct impact that it has on the business?

Elisabeth Cooke 7:08

Yeah, I think a lot of people really misunderstand psychological safety as being about comfort, but it's not, right? It's really about creating an environment where people feel safe enough to contribute fully, right? To be able to fully challenge ideas, to ask those questions, to admit those mistakes without fear of punishment or being embarrassed, which, you know, if you've ever sat around, and I've had the displeasure of in other areas of my life, sitting in, you know, around different tables at work where you can tell nobody wants to say anything because nobody wants to get scolded for saying the wrong thing or missing something or asking, you know, the stupid question or something like that. And for everybody who's listening, I did air quotes on stupid questions. We know that high performance teams aren't the one where everybody agrees, right? It's the ones where everybody can have honest conversations. And it's those honest conversations that really help people, right? They have that sense of safety. When our psychological safety is low, we end up seeing things like information gets hidden, different risks go unreported, and innovation just slows down. Um, you're not you're not working well, right? So it's one of the reasons why I see psychological safety as being a really important leadership and performance strategy. And it's one of the most important ones that we have today. Like as a leader, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole on my spiel on AI and how great it is, but how useless it is in other ways. But we know when we look at leadership skills, being able to create a psychologically safe workplace is something that people need to do for people and that need help to get there.

Angela Robertson 8:34

Yes, I would like for you to jump down that rabbit hole because I think our listeners, it's important to hear that. And I think that's part of the reason. Well, at least I'm curious about it, is diving into. I think that's one of the ways that humans can continue to maintain human constructs, right? Like we're all working together. What does that look like, right? Like how how are we making it easier to still create and be innovative? Yeah. I'd love to take that ride with you.

Elisabeth Cooke 9:01

I uh I love being encouraged to go down rabbit holes. This is one of my favorite things to do. Um so I I think AI is great, uh, but we have to remember that AI like is AI, it is a tool. We can't get distracted by like the big shiny object. I was at Web Summit, not this year, but last year. Remember, one of the I don't even remember who he was, but he was this amazing engineer that had done incredible things and they were talking to him. There was everybody was so excited on the edge of their seats, like listening, drinking in every word that he had to say about AI. And he was like, I mean, AI is only as good as it is, right? Like he still uses his watch and says, Siri, you know, call his wife, and it messes it up. So we have to keep these things in in perspective. So the the same thing with AI. AI is coming into businesses and it's taking up, uh, you know, it is going to get rid of some jobs because some jobs are things that we don't need to have happen anymore, right? You know, we don't need people necessarily typing things. We can have data, you know, get populated and different things. We can code for different, we can check a lot of those things. But the thing that AI isn't going to be doing that people want it to do is that it's sort of cutting out that that that middle management bit, but it's it's making a lot of people that are still in those roles and people that are in leadership roles, but the people in leadership roles don't necessarily know how to manage those people. They don't know how to do that, they don't know how to engage in in those kinds of things. They're used to having more steps in between. And AI is going to cut out a lot of the sort of the people in between. So where we need to come back onto some of those basic skills and those skills of like what it is to be a strong leader. And a strong leader is somebody that, you know, you need to know the limits of your tools. You need to know how to work with people and to maintain teams. You need to understand, you know, sort of what those differences are and be able to create a psychologically safe workplace. You can talk to any organization that's gone through layoffs and has AI to account for a number of them, things are not going well. AI might replace some of those jobs, but it's not going to help management or leadership like fix some of those issues and address the culture and make people feel safe in their roles, right? So if AI comes into your organization and it gets rid of people and then scares the life out of everybody else, there's a lot of leadership stuff that needs to happen there to address those issues. And that's one of the pieces that I'm not seeing, you know, it's reliance on AI. We're forgetting that AI is a tool and we're forgetting to give AI a job description when it should have a job description. And we're just thinking to sort of do everything, right? And you need to keep it in its box and you need to keep people because it's everything's not going to run off of AI. It's just, it's just not.

Angela Robertson 11:22

Yeah, it's so important, I think, especially just what you said about, you know, if you're bringing AI in and it's coming in to have a role within your organization, has to be a description there too. Because if it's whether it's a process or a function or whatever it's doing, the people who are involved need to know how to interact with it as well, right? So I think that's just so important what you just shared. And it's great to think about, you know, how we're interacting with each other and then how we're also enabling folks who maybe have less experience with certain AI tools or others to partake in the learning as we go along the way, right? Not assuming the same base level of everyone involved. That'll be so important for leaders going forward.

Elisabeth Cooke 12:11

Yeah.

Angela Robertson 12:12

I want to talk now a little bit about your leadership journey, Elizabeth. As a founder and CEO, what have been some of the toughest leadership moments you've had to navigate while scaling this company, Digney, this mission-driven company?

Elisabeth Cooke 12:26

Yeah, I mean, that's a it's a really good question. I think one of the biggest challenges has been helping organizations to navigate those kind of like increasingly complex and sometimes polarizing conversations around workplace culture and DEI. You know, a lot of the work that we do in our company is is based around sort of like me as the figurehead. Like I say all the time, like I'm not good in sales, but I'm a great show pony. So I do a lot of like public speaking, I do a lot of you know having conversations with clients, helping people to really kind of shift. And those are some of the the harder, harder pieces because sometimes I have to choose not to work with companies uh that I don't want to work with, that we know we don't have that values alignment, which you know makes having a mission driven company and wanting to scale like challenging, right? Because an element of our sort of money uh, you know, kind of pushes that. A lot of the conversations that I end up having having with folks like can be really emotional because they touch on people's lived experience. You know, like I often say to folks that most people that are talking about, you know, workplace engagement or psychological safety or DEI, like they've got some skin in the game. Uh it can be a really personal, a personal thing. And I try to see my particular role as never being like political, but helping organizations to create environments where they can let, you know, like their people be who they are, right? Because we really should be like wonderful as individuals, right? People can contribute and collaborate and sort of perform at their very best because that's what makes our organizers great, but people can also be awful. And we can not realize that we're that we're kind of doing that. So I do spend a lot of time facilitating like really difficult conversations, helping leaders hear things that they really don't want to hear, identify, you know, I I don't even think they say weaknesses anymore. I'd have a little kids in school and they call them like they call them like a flex or stretch or something like that instead of weaknesses. They have a new way. Yeah. I mean, again, we can call it whatever we like. It's the same kind of thing. But we have to be able to have those kind of moments to be able to sort of push through to that meaningful change. And one of the things that I've realized, you know, as a leader is that it really does require, like leadership really requires a willingness to be able to sit through those really uncomfortable conversations and be able to look at like solutions and outcomes. And so I do a lot of you know shifting and really uh, I mean, my background is in law. I've you know, I have a jurisdictor of law. I also have an undergraduate degree in human and social development. So I worked as like a counselor for a long time. So I'm pretty good at sort of checking my feelings and I can see like, you know, what's hurting my feelings, like what's professionally annoying, and what, you know, being able to sort of put those things in those buckets. And then I try to demonstrate that a lot so that when I'm experiencing those challenges, I'm being really clear about it and really uh honest about that. And that that often tends to help me quite a bit in those difficult moments.

Angela Robertson 15:08

It sounds like in your career, you know, academic and into business career, you've put in a lot of reps with these difficult conversations, right? So I think sometimes, you know, practice is a helpful indicator of where you can build experience. And then this company for you, is this your first time as a founder? And is has that been a shift or a difference for you? Was there anything that surprised you about jumping in and starting this business?

Elisabeth Cooke 15:35

Yeah, I mean, being a founder hurts my feelings regularly. Uh, it's a lot of like responsibility. You know, I'm uh I'm nearly 46 and I thought there was like other adults in the room, and and often I'm wrong. And that's really like it's quite confronting uh to kind of realize that. But I think what it does is it helps you to sort of you know strengthen your relationships, right? Like I'm old enough to remember talking to the on the phone to people. Uh, you know, if I have a hard day, I have them now. There's I saw it on Instagram the other day, there's a new term for them, but like, you know, you're my person to call when I'm driving somewhere. And if you don't answer that call, I'm very upset because I had planned that as my top team. And I've found myself, especially, you know, like since we all started working remotely, that was really isolating. Working as a founder is really isolating. I've tried to make work friends like that. So I when I used to work for other people in an office, it was easier to sort of make friends on that level. And now I have, you know, as other business owners that I've met through, you know, other things, like, you know, I've had the privilege of being involved with some of the other Ace Tech stuff, going to other, you know, networking events, just in the chambers of commerce and stuff like that, is like making those work friends that I can like have a whinge about uh and talk about how difficult you know some things can be. And that's really helped to make you know, being at like a really isolated because it is really isolating as a founder, and people don't talk about that. They talk about it like it's so great that you get to run your own company, and it's really not. It's really awful being in charge of everything all the time. Like I make the joke about like they like terrible at sales. Great show, pony, terrible at sales, wonderful at having difficult conversations, talking about DEI, great with letting people know like what's racist, what's sexist, what's homophobic, what should you not be doing, you know, why this is breaking the rule, why you shouldn't have done that. Like those kinds of things are easy, but you know, all the different hats and stuff that you have to wear as a house uh as a founder is like hurts my feelings all the time.

Angela Robertson 17:21

Yeah, it does. I think I mean that's that's part of the reason why we actually put this podcast together, is because all of these conversations, the unique thread that pulls through, doesn't matter if you're a founder for the first time or the fourth or fifth time, it is isolating and it it's important to talk about it too, because you know, at the end of the day, there's usually a really good reason for starting these companies. And yet, you know, you have to take care of the person that's also driving the company as you're building the company, as you well know, because that's what you do uh for all of these people inside of all of these other companies, too, right?

Elisabeth Cooke 17:57

Yeah. Yeah, and we have to stop this thing where we think everyone's like gonna nail it because like nobody's nailing it. I say all the time, like nobody's nobody's finished with DEI. Like nobody's like, oh, we're gonna just like take the box and move on to something else. Like nobody's you know nailed everything and finished everything and is perfect. It's just not a thing. Uh and the the quicker we kind of calm down and accept that and help each other, the easier our lives will be, particularly as female founders, I have to say. Right? But yeah.

Angela Robertson 18:21

I completely agree. I completely agree. I want to tug on that trend a little bit because I think you've just touched on how important it is to be future ready, right? And I think that state of future readiness has a lot to do with an openness to learning, to accepting what you don't know, to knowing that things can change. As what do you think? What kinds of leadership traits do you see across governments, corporations, institutions that you've worked with that the most future ready organizations have in common?

Elisabeth Cooke 18:50

Yeah. I mean, I think they manage to be real people, right? And they've found their own approach. Like for me, that's obviously trying to make sure that I know what it is that I'm talking about, but I like to maybe a little bit funny and occasionally self-deprecating in that, because that is sort of is my shtick. I think leaders, you know, that really are preparing for the future, um, they're really curious. Um, they know how to ask questions. Um, people are very good at having something to say, but they're often terrible at asking questions. And and good leaders are curious. They can look for that feedback and they can actually stay open rather than just like asking a question and like deciding what the answer is, but actually like shutting up for a second and just thinking about that is really key. Leaders that are really adaptable, that understand that things are changing, like none of us like change. Like none of us. Like I worked as a therapist, nobody therapists don't like change. If you and I've worked with groups of therapists trying to like get them onto like, you know, new software or to create change. They are the most resistant to change possible. Like nobody likes change. It's just a thing. Nobody's into it. But understanding that that's going to happen and that you're actually going to be fine on the other end is very helpful. Being old, I think, really helps you with that, like to realize that everything changes, assuming that you've kind of rolled with it a little bit. And then being humble, realizing like you don't have all the answers. You also don't have to have all the answers. Like, if there's a person in the world that thinks they have all the answers, like I've got a lot of questions for them for why they think that they have that. You know, people that leaders that are, you know, are able to like actually listen to employees, actually listen to stakeholders, anti-communities. I think those are the ones that are doing really well. Organizations that are doing well, that are like thriving, they're not necessarily the ones with like the biggest budgets or the newest technology. Those ones are the ones, you know, that are creating cultures of trust, of learning, of accountability and inclusion. Like those are the places where people want to work. Is you know, a place where you can actually like enjoy where it is that you work. And those are the ones that you know can adapt successfully to sort of the different things that are coming. So yeah, so curiosity, adaptability, and being humble.

Angela Robertson 20:43

Yeah. And those all kind of tie into each other too, right? You know, you kind of need to be humble in order to practice that curiosity. That's really yeah. You said a lot in that. I'm still just sitting with it. So thank you for sharing that. I think also diversity conversations can become politicized or even surface level and can be very difficult, right? Because people, I think sometimes worry about even having those conversations because they worry if they even have the language to say what's right or if their language is current. How do you encourage leaders to move beyond performative efforts or just kind of scratching the surface into meaningful change, getting a bit deeper?

Elisabeth Cooke 21:31

Yeah. I think that that meaningful change happens when organizations kind of move beyond like the things that they're saying or their statements and start actually focusing like on their systems. Hmm. Like employees aren't judging organizations by the things that they say. Like we're not like, you know, scouring your social media as a corporation to see what it is that you say said to like decide if we're gonna, you know, judge them or not. They judge them by what they experience, right? So are opportunities in an organization distributed fairly? Um, Are leaders actually accountable? Like, can you demonstrate that level of accountability? Are employees being listened to? And that's not just like filling in a survey. That's you ask me a question on a survey, I fill in my answer, you go away, you say, Oh, I read what you said, and I'm gonna think about it and do something differently. And then you do the different thing, right? Like the the two most fundamental, I think, values that you need to really aspire to do good DEI work are accountability and transparency. And then you need to see are the barriers being identified and addressed. So if I tell you that there's something that's a problem, are you doing anything about it? The most successful organizations, they don't look so much on like optics, but they look at those outcomes, right? So measuring progress, listening to employees, and integrating that inclusion into that everyday like decision making. Like a lot of, you know, having a jurisdictor of law has provided me with a significant amount of privilege. And one of them is being listened to at the corporate executive level because I can explain to them how like DEI comes from basic human fundamental like rights. You're gonna have a serious problem if you violate these in a variety of different shapes and forms. It doesn't sit over here by itself. It needs to be integrated into your strategic plan, into what it how it is that you operate as a business for it to do well. Like, are you actually doing that? Do you have the values that you sit and talk about at that, you know, like one lunch where you bought everybody pizza on whiteboards and on, you know, little everybody's done it, the whiteboards and the post-it notes, and we're gonna color coordinate how we feel and what we value. Like, did you do anything with that? Because it's less about like getting your post-its in the right spots, and it's more about showing that you've delivered on that stuff that's important. And that's how people like experience, you know, that meaningful change of being able to, you know, put your put your two cents in and then seeing it, uh seeing it delivered on, right? So being inclusive isn't something that you just announced, like, right, we're inclusive, like you know, huge fail, right? Like yesterday was the start of Pride Month, and I I know I was yes, I was sharing things on social media, like I'm gay, I feel like it's obvious, uh, um gay and but I'm like a boring gay now. Like I've been in a relationship for like 20 years and I have two kids, so I'm I'm not like a fun gay. Uh I'm a boring gay. But you know, it's not about just saying, you know, like, oh yeah, hooray, look, oh, did you see the huge, you know, float that we have for pride? And you know, look at our advertising, like we have somebody with pink hair and like a septum piercing, like that's not gonna like do the trick. Um, it's not something that you can announce, right? Inclusion is something that people experience through, you know, like those leadership behaviors, through those workplace practices, workplace practices, and through that organizational culture. So you need to make sure that you're delivering um on all of those things.

Angela Robertson 24:29

Yeah, absolutely. And that it's not just one month of the year or one day of the year or when it's convenient to market about it that you're really living at 365. And that, you know, I think I I still feel like when you go out into the world, it's it's like being a good neighbor too. You know, if you're in a good neighborhood, you feel like everyone on the street is looking out for you. And when you're in a company where that inclusion really is there, it's everyone in the company is looking out for you, right? And no matter who you are or where you're from, right?

Elisabeth Cooke 25:02

Yeah. We don't need to make it like that complex. Like we've No, like I don't know when you I was I grew up in the 80s and I feel like I show it more and more and more. But I say to my children all the time, and I watch them just hearing like too many words about how they have to behave and how everybody has to be a and I really just you know say to them frequently like I I don't say the words don't be a dick because they're little, but I like don't be a dick. Like it's not that hard. And if it is hard for you, then you need to go and take a moment and realize what because nobody wants to hang out with you if you're gonna behave like that, you know, and sort of explaining that to people.

Angela Robertson 25:32

I do think that's a bit of a lost art, right? The language around that. I think sometimes we can get so complex that we lose sight of. That's why I talk about you know being a good neighbor. That was something again, formulaic in the 80s, right? You talk about what it means to be a good neighbor. I feel like that's what it means to be a good community member. That's what it means to be a good business person. Yeah, you know, fundamentally it's the same kind of thing. Treat folks with respect, right?

Elisabeth Cooke 25:57

Yeah, there's so many ways that I like I tell my kids all the time to like mine their own beeswax or like eyes on your own fries, like eyes on your own fries. Or you by yourself, like you know, don't be nosy about other things. And about and if other some other kids are gonna be mean, like, then don't play with them. They need natural, like we've cut out natural consequences for a lot of bad behavior.

Angela Robertson 26:17

And we need to we have talk about this as a rabbit hole I could go down, but but I think I think we're not too far off of where I was hoping to kind of get your final word on because you know you talked about you know your learning of being founders. You're like, where are the adults in the room? It's not different from like that childlike curiosity for those founders who are building companies today. How do you think they can embed inclusion or you know, this being a good neighbor, this being an inherently good business person, good leader early instead of trying to kind of band-aid fix stuff, you know, later down the road?

Elisabeth Cooke 26:56

I think we do this thing where we're like, well, I'll be like a real company when I have like 50 employees. You know, uh, I'm waiting to make this much money to like count as being real. And like culture starts from day one, right? My advice, I think, to future founders would be to be really intentional from the beginning, create opportunities for feedback. You know, as a company that surveys like huge employers where they have like hundreds or thousands of employees, it's very difficult to survey like groups of small people, but you need to find a way to have people be it like feel safe to give you feedback, right? So create opportunities for feedback, build that trust early, hire people with diverse perspectives. We are very good at hiring people that we think we want to work with. And we hire, you know, like hires like, like I can another rabbit hole we could go down, but we won't, is like around include unconscious bias and how in what that looks like in hiring. Uh some of the best advice that I ever got was for like at work as a as a actually I'll give him his props. He's like an older white lawyer, and he told me, he's like, you know, when you find yourself needing advice, don't go to the cubicle of the person that you go for coffee with and hang out with all the time. Go to the person in the office that you hate. It might not be what it you want to hear, but you need to have a different perspective. You don't have to do what they say, you don't have to take the advice, but ask for the advice. We need to have those kind of different perspectives, or we will get stuck like having tunnel vision and being surrounded by sycophants. Like, you need only look at Elon Musk's behavior in public to know that he's surrounded by sycophants, by people that aren't like checking him or giving him opinions that he doesn't want to hear, right? The same thing applies to anybody, you know, in any kind of world like that. You don't want to be surrounded by sycophants. You want to be surrounded by people that want to work on your team and keep you strong and do well and have your company succeed. Everybody wants to be the first or second employee at Apple, but you have to be able to, you know, create that space where you know you can have an environment where people feel comfortable speaking up and learn how to manage that. And it's a much more intimate, like much more acute way of working with people. But the the sooner that you, you know, create a positive culture and an inclusive culture there, I think the better off, uh, the better off you'll be. And yeah, I think not treating inclusion as something separate, like a separate initiative. It needs to be something that that is included in that. And then figure out how to make that a part of your everyday. I think that will that will create some success for you.

Angela Robertson 29:17

Wise, wise words. I so appreciate that. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. I so enjoyed this conversation today. And I hope all of our listeners did too. And I wish you all the best with Digney and look forward to the next time we get to chat together. Thanks, Angela. It was great being able to chat with you today. At Ace Tech, we believe one of the most valuable resources a leader can access is another leader's experience. That's why I created the Stormy Stories show to bring you honest conversations about the moments that test us, shape us, and ultimately make us better CEOs and founders. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.